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All right, well, here's what I'd like to do. And this is going to demonstrate how cool and hip I am. I got my notes on my phone. That's right. I've become one of those guys. The subject that I want to talk to you about today is a subject that is raging.

I don't know how up you are on this, but it is big. This is a big issue. And the issue is what we're calling social justice these days. And so social justice is a term that actually began about, give or take, about 150 years ago. And it historically has had an awful lot of, we'll just say, liberal baggage.

And while so much of this conversation that we're having, it might sound political, we want to keep it entirely theological, because that really is the concern, is that social justice ultimately has roots in a system that is a biblical. And it suddenly burst on the scene now just a few months ago with a conference that happened to everybody's surprise, I think it was called the MLK 50 Conference.

It was a celebration of the life and legacy of Martin Luther King Jr., which is pretty amazing considering the fact that he's a heretic and we're celebrating his life and legacy. Not to mention his personal lifestyle was anything but exemplary. That was a celebration of MLK 50 to really forward the conversation on social justice.

So that just threw it out into the open. Something that I think has been worked on for a number of years is bringing in, and I'll explain the term social justice as best I can, that it made it suddenly an evangelical conversation. A number of months ago, we did a video called The Gathering Storm to talk about how these forces, people who are, well, let's just call them social justice people and not social justice people, that it's brewing.

And this is important for us because this is predominantly suddenly a reformed conversation. And so the conversation has been thrust upon us, and we have to figure out what it is compared to our Bible so that we know how we're supposed to be dealing with some of these social issues.

Now, as we begin, before we jump into who said what and who did this thing and that thing, because it's pretty tense out there right now, I think the storm has pretty much come to a bit of a head right now. I want us to understand that this conversation is not new.

While this is a conversation that might well divide reformed circles, this is not a new issue. And I think that we need to remember that. And here's my fear is that this conversation that we're having about social justice is a little bit too much like, I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

Fox News. You got the good guys, and you got the bad guys. And if you're not in my camp, we're just going to go at you. And I think that's kind of where we're at right now, both sides kind of doing that. And I think we would do well to let's take a look at the history of quote social justice.

Let's compare it to our Bibles to see where we're supposed to stand on this. And let's do it lovingly because there's this thing called unity that Jesus wants. And we don't want to destroy unity over something that might not be an essential doctrine. So if you consider the issue of, quote, social justice, if you call yourself an evangelical, really, you're involved in this conversation because that was a part of the founding of evangelical Christianity.

If you recall in the early 1900s, the fundamentalist movement, very dominant, they would be a social issues. So not involved in politics, not involved in arts, entertainment, just preach the gospel. Well, a group of evangelicals, so-called, came along and said, no, no, we really, the church needs to be more involved in culture.

That's the debate that's happening right now. It's got its nuances, but that's the same debate. If you remember, the moral majority, that sprang up so that Christians would get more involved in politics. That's the conversation that we're having right now. So this is not. Something that's suddenly all new.

This is an historic conversation, and here's something that I think we need to remember. Would any of you ever say that Jerry Falwell was a heretic? Probably not. You know, he maybe wasn't your cup of tea, but I don't think that we'd put him into the heresy camp by any means.

He'd be considered a social justice warrior today. Anytime, the religious right, we've worshiped with our brothers and sisters who are perhaps more politically motivated and involved than some of us when it comes to the church's involvement. Individual involvement is separate. But they were more involved and more wanting to change culture through a political mechanism.

We'd worship with them. They'd be considered social justice warriors today. So here we are today, having a conversation about something that we've really been having a conversation about for a long time. I can't remember what article it is, but in the Southern Baptist Convention, in their what is it, the Faith and Messages?

Is that it? They say it very clearly, that it is the Christian's job to be involved in all different realms of the culture, bringing the kingdom of God to government, bringing the kingdom of God to arts and entertainment, bringing it to education. And that is something that has been long standing in the Southern Baptist Church.

And again, is this a Southern Baptist church? Okay. Well, clearly you wouldn't call Southern Baptist heretics because you are. But many brothers and sisters, we'd welcome anybody here who had a different view on these issues. And right now, we're having a conversation about the same issues, but with a lot of new terms.

And we're at the point right now that if we don't figure it out, it is my opinion, we're going to see a really big, potentially unnecessary split in the reform movement. I think there's going to be a split, but I'm just hoping that it won't be as massive as it could be if we would get to the business of studying this subject biblically.

So, with that in mind, and my intention today is not to get into all of the nuances of Christian activism, churches' involvement in issues. Look, this is a big, complicated, difficult situation. I am certain that right here this morning, there are some people that are like, ugh, government.

Other people are like, hey, we got to get involved in this. We got to get on this. But we can have fellowship with one another. So, it's not my intention to persuade, but I would like to bring to your attention a couple of books in the Bible. There's a fascinating book called 1 Peter, and it is the book of persecution.

So, let's think through what Peter recommends to us if we are going to be a persecuted people. Because while this is not a social justice issue, persecution is not a very important thing. Say. The question is: how do we respond to our culture? How do we engage with government and education, etc.?

And I think 1 Peter is a bit instructive. Now, I want you to imagine when 1 Peter was written, that persecution was much greater than anything we can imagine. I mean, this was nasty business. They were getting lit up like torches for Nero's parties. And persecution was eminent, and there were Christians who were scattered abroad who were being persecuted.

Whoever's Bible that is, could I use that? Is that yours? Yes. Is that like a large print Bible? It is. It's a large print study Bible. Man, this is a thumper. This is a beast. Look at that. Let's just preach better with a book like this. 1, 2, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, 10.

I just want us, because this isn't really where we're going to spend our time today, but I do want us to skim just a bit over 1 Peter. Now, remember, he's writing to people, here it comes. What is his advice? I think it's rather shocking and quite instructive.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside scattered abroad, he says, Blessed be the God and Father, verse 3 of our Lord Jesus Christ. And he basically talks about the gospel, the imperishable gift that you have. Nothing about persecution yet, but their preambles tended to be longer.

But go to verse 10. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come, they made careful searches and inquiries. And he's talking about how they were trying to figure out who's this Messiah, who's this one who must suffer. What is it going to look like?

A political figure? Is it going to be just a religious figure? What kind of Messiah are we going to have? Notice nothing really about persecution. Verse 13. Therefore, prepare your minds for action. Keep sober in spirit. Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Don't be conformed to your former lusts in which you lived in ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves in your behavior. Those are the first two pieces of advice that Peter gives us about persecution. Did you catch it? Prepare your minds. Think about, don't forget the gospel, the 13 verses that I was just talking about.

Don't forget the grace that was purchased for you and be holy. Would you give that advice to a persecuted people? I would be more inclined to say something like, well, what you need to do is you need to buy some food from James Baker on TV. Have you seen that, by the way?

Jim Baker's back in business, and he's selling food. Big vats of food, so when you move to Montana to get away from them, whoever them is, you'll have this food. So he's in business. So I might be inclined to say, well, you know what? If you're going to be persecuted, get ready, prepare your house.

And well, there's nothing wrong with that, most certainly. And that would be the advice that I'd be inclined to give, but Peter doesn't give that advice. He says, be holy, be set apart, be different. Let's just jump to chapter 2. 1 Peter chapter 2. Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, do you hear him preaching to these persecuted people?

Don't behave like a pagan. You're in Christ. You're bought. Nothing about practical things like, here's how you protect your investments. This is what happens if this political thing happens or if the tanks start rolling. Nothing about self-defense. It's all about being holy. Verse 4, he talks about Jesus again.

So we hear the gospel again. Verse 11, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage warn your soul. Remember, persecution is there. And he's preaching. This is that's what 1 Peter is. Be holy. Set aside those former lusts. And they're outside the walls.

Ready to come in. Fascinating. Verse chapter 3. In the same way, you wives be submissive to your own husbands. All right, what was why in the same way? Well, if you scoot back to 1 Peter 2:18, it's talking about the issue of slaves and masters. He's saying to the slave, submit to your master.

Be a good slave. That's what he's saying. And then he says, be a good wife, submit. Then he gives a lecture in chapter 3, verse 7, to husbands. This is how you're supposed to behave. You're called to blessing. Christ's suffering is our suffering. Chapter 3, verse 13. Therefore, this is chapter 4, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with this same purpose.

Remember, persecution is the theme here, and Peter's lecture primarily is be a holy, set apart different people. And I think the reason for that ultimately is found in verse 15. If you scoot back to 1 Peter 3, this is a verse that we love to use for apologetics, and I think it most certainly applies to that.

Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you with gentleness and reverence. In other words, when you get persecuted, you respond lovingly. You respond in a holy fashion so that your persecutors are going to go, all right, what's the deal?

Why are you like this? So that you can then share the gospel of Jesus Christ. So Peter sees persecution as an evangelistic opportunity. That's pretty instructive. And then he scoots through chapters four and five. He's talking about how we're supposed to be suffering for God's glory, serving for God's glory, to pastors in chapter five, shepherd the flock.

And then the Bible, the book ends up with his benediction: peace to you, to all who are in Christ. The end. Nothing practical per se. The government was bearing down on these people. And Peter's admonition is not to go about. Now, I don't want anybody to be offended or annoyed.

I truly don't. This is not to suggest that Christians can't be involved in politics. Of course, Christians can be. But Peter's focus here is you be a holy politician. You be a holy believer. You respond in a different way to culture because God wants to forward the gospel more than just making the world a better place.

And there's nothing wrong with that. To desire human flourishing is a good thing, most certainly. But the question is: how do we go about doing that? And a distinction has been made between people and the church. As an individual, you want to be involved in politics. I'll bet there's people here involved in politics.

Rock on. Good on you. It's no different than trying to do cancer research at Texas AM. You're trying to do kind things for people. Do it. But what he's saying to the church here is that's not the church's interest. The church's interest is being in a holy set-apart people so that we can preach the gospel to people.

And then you see, if you consider, too, the book of Philemon, you've got a book written to a slave owner because the slave had run away. This is so cool. The slave, Onesimus, had run away from Philemon, and he got saved because of Paul. And Paul sends him back and admonishes, encourages the slave owner, be a good slave owner, and you be a good slave.

Don't overturn the system. We don't see a New Testament command to be somebody who overturns things, to change everything. And again, if you, as a believer, strive to do that, this is where so much of the confusion I think is coming in this whole conversation. Is that some of us who are really kind of conservative on the social justice thing, not really nuts about it, might talk too strongly to give the impression that Christians can't be engaged in society and in culture and be involved in activities in the Better Business Bureau, whatever it is.

Outstanding. You're like a nurse, you're like a doctor. You're like the milkmaid who feeds God's children by providing milk. Excellent. But he says to the church: your role as the church is not to go about flipping a bad system on its head. Now, I share that with you as we now begin.

I'm going to try to do this in a way that I hope you all can see here. I'm going to do a bit of a recap of where we're at with this social justice question. And then I'll talk about where I see where we're at right now and where we might be going, and then we'll chat about it.

Okay? So here's what you've got. Was it 2007 or 9 that Time magazine said there's this new movement, 2007, 2008? There's this massive movement. It's called the Young, Restless, and Reformed Generation. We got very excited about this. It's like, oh, young people are suddenly discovering reformed theology, and this is really exciting.

And wow, did we see an explosion of that? And now, today, those people typically, the neo-reformed folks, they tend to, I'm going to do it this way, would be the gospel coalition. Those are more neo-reformed. There's classical reformed folks which. Which is probably more where y'all are at.

Classical Reformed, where high and sovereign doctrines they infect more of what you do in church life. So these are, this group of folks, not pejoratively, but they tend to be more pragmatic, more willing to change church and the way we do things for the sake of trying to win people, versus classical Reformed folks, a bit more traditional, where we probably operate more underneath the regulative principle of worship.

So you've got the classical Reformed folks, you've got the Gospel Coalition, then you've also got Together for the Gospel. These are separate entities. Some people conflate the Gospel Coalition with Together for the Gospel simply because a lot of their board members are one and the same, but they are two different entities.

For instance, even John MacArthur, in this camp right here, I would say, he sits on the Together for the Gospel board, but so does Tim Keller, who's definitely on the far-left social justice side. So you've got this mingling going on. And the reason that I wanted to talk to you about this this morning, again, it's not to get into any sort of an argument about the role of individuals and how we engage in culture, as much as this group used to get along.

And that was a good thing. This group did big conferences together. This group, if you've ever seen, there are thousands of. People showing up for events together on both sides of the issue. In this group, if you will, you had people like, I'm going to say John MacArthur, R.C.

Sproll. There's a difference between people, JMEC and R.C. Sproll, regarding the issue of baptism. Now, none of us at that time would have said, you're of Sproll and you believe in pato baptism, get thee behind me. We didn't talk like that. We got along together. This issue is looking to do that.

And my concern is that if we don't figure out what is going on in this, we're going to be dividing with some people that I think it would be a sad thing for it to happen. So, for instance, I'm just going to do a continuum here. All right, so here you've got John MacArthur, who's been kind of leading the way on this anti-social justice side.

You've got people like Phil Johnson, you've got James White, a long group, about 8,000 people signed a statement recently on this side. All right, over here, you've got people like David Platt. Do you know who David Platt is? Does anybody think he's a heretic? No, may not be your cup of tea, but he's not a heretic.

But he's on the other side of this line. Over here would be Russell Moore. Over here would be Al Moeller. Over here would be Tim Keller. Then you've got some other guys like Tabiti Anyabuile, if you've never heard of him, he comes out of Nine Marks Ministries, Washington, D.C., pastoring a church in, I believe, Virginia, who has been saying things like at the Martin Luther King celebration that you are complicit in the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.

because you live in the system. Your parents, they were involved in the system that created a culture that somehow was the mechanism to assassinate Martin Luther King Jr. You need to repent for yourself and for your parents. That's kind of strong, wouldn't you say? But so you've got this whole group of people over here, and you've got these group of people over here.

And formerly, we would get together and we'd be together for the gospel. This issue is shaping up that it's like, you're on that side, we're on this side. Now, here's what we've got coming up. Are you familiar with the G3 conference? And here's the Shepherds Conference. Guess who's speaking at these?

Oh, by the way, Mark Dever is over here, too. All right. Well, Mark Dever's going to be at the G3 Conference. Mark Dever is going to be at the Shepherds Conference. Al Moeller is going to be at the Shepherds' Conference. David Platt's going to be at G3. And guess what?

So is John MacArthur going to be at this conference. Phil Johnson is going to be at the G3 conference. I think James is at the G3 conference again. Oh, well, look at that. Now we've got conference season coming up. How are we going to get along on this issue?

Because people are, this is a line. After MLK 50, a group of theologians got together to discuss what might be a good response to this. And so they met in Dallas and came up with the Dallas Statement on Social Justice. If you haven't read it, I commend it to you.

I don't think you'll disagree with anything. In fact, Tabidian Yabuile, when he read the statement that was prepared by these guys, which would also be Tom Askell, Tom Buck, was over here. Vodie, yeah. Bodhi, too. By the way, if you've never seen the debate with Vodi Baukam and a group of social justice people, Tabidian Yabuile, on a stage, and it was the Southern Baptist Lifeway guy.

Did a lot of polling, and he does a lot of church guru stuff. What's his name? Ed Stetzer. Ed Stetzer. They were at a panel, and Vodie was on the stage, and Vodie was all alone. All alone on this issue. I think my favorite part was when Ed Stetzer said, Well, that's ridiculous, Vodie, because I mean, we've got graduated taxes in this country.

Are you going to say that's Marxism? And Vodi goes, Yes. Yes, I am going to say that. They just, their heads almost blew up. All right. So I think Vodie's going to be a G3. He's been to Shepherds before, most certainly. How now are we going to get along?

Or is this going to be a really massive divide like some people are predicting? All right. So, with that in mind, we know the history of it. We've kind of studied very lightly what the Bible teaches about the church's role in culture, not the Christians' role, the church's role in culture.

This is not a new conversation. So, why is this suddenly shaping up to be something that's more radical? Well, I think, first of all, because this is a Reformed issue. This isn't just an evangelical issue. Reformed would fit underneath evangelical, but so would fundamentalist Baptists. I think, you know, maybe they wouldn't like it, but we'd put anybody who was a church, a Christian and Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free Church, most of the independent non-denominational - that's evangelicalism.

That's huge. This is Reformed, and it was going pretty strong here for about a decade. Now we've got to figure out how we're going to get along on this new. Issue. Are we going to get along like John MacArthur and R.C. Scroll did on baptism, or do we separate from one another?

So, this is why this conversation is different. I'm going to introduce you, if you haven't heard this, to some definitions, some terms that are being used. And you'll start to see why this gets so contentious. And I think a part of it is because we can't help but think in political terms, even as we think about theological terms.

But there's something called critical race theory. And in general, what this is, is that there is an oppressed group of people, and there is an oppressor. And the people who have been oppressing, it needs to be overturned. That system needs to be broken down. You might be saying to yourself, that sounds kind of familiar.

We've heard that kind of talk before. Critical race theory, there's a black liberation theology. This was started in the 60s. James Cohn started this. He didn't see Christ as a penal substitutionary atonement, but Jesus was one who clearly was abused by society and identified with the downtrodden. So it's not a story of redemption.

He was really trying to combine the theology of Martin Luther King Jr., Christian theology, along with Malcolm X. And that's black liberation theology. And so, again, the oppressed group must be overturned. You've also got another thing playing in here: feminism. This is another issue that is actually tied into this, and some people believe that the issue that's going to come out of this too is: did you hear the talk about Beth Moore becoming the president of the Southern Baptist Convention?

That's coming out of this sort of this group of folks right here. They're talking like that. Some people are even more worried that the homosexual issue is going to get dragged into this. The Re-Voice Conference, if you didn't hear of that, happened recently. In the Revoice Conference, held at a Presbyterian church, America, they said it's okay to be gay, identify as gay.

You just can't be intimate. But you can do everything else, cohabitate, even roommates, if you will, everything else, and you need to live out. That's a big group, living out. There are some people who are concerned: is that where all of this conversation is ultimately going? A tearing down of traditional structures.

So, feminism is involved in this. The homosexual issue is involved in this. You've got something else called deconstructionism. And deconstructionism, it's a bit of a messy term, but it's a postmodern term. It comes from some French philosophers in the middle of the 20th century. And in essence, because they believed at that time there is no truth, that truth can't be known.

We need to tear down, for instance, literature. So, how do you read a book? You don't read what it says, you read what it doesn't say to figure out what the author was actually saying. Got it? It's deconstructionism. And the idea is that you've got to dismantle it.

If you want to understand how this thing was built, you've got to tear it down to figure out how it got put together. Are you hearing a theme in all of this? Do you hear a theme? In the early 20th century, there was a fellow who liked a guy named Karl Marx.

Gramsky, he's an Italian philosopher. And so he was studying Karl Marx. And he came up with kind of a different way of approaching Marxism. It was more about social issues, social structures. It involved the laborer and the worker, but it was more about how do we go about getting rid of these people groups because we've got these classes, mostly the rich and then we've got the poor, and we've got to fix that.

We've got to change that. And you say, well, that sounds a lot like Marxism, and I would agree. It does sound like Karl Marx. In fact, Karl Marx, if you recall, it was all about labor. He saw that the rich, the factory owners, were just trying to wring as much labor out.

And, hey, there is much involved. You know, it takes. You didn't build that highway, or whatever it was that Barack Obama said, you didn't build that business. Well, Karl Marx would agree. He'd say, well, that's right. The laborers helped build that, but they should share in whatever those blessings or profits are.

And so, Karl Marx, who we can thank really for pretty much all of this, is the fellow who said the bourgeoisie, they got to come down because they're oppressing the proletariat, the folks, the hoi polloi. Now, those are all terms. Why do we need to know these? Because if you listen to some sermons from MLK 50 and even David Platt's sermon at Together for the Gospel, you're going to hear terms and you're going to go, well, that sounds like Gramsci Marxism.

Well, that's because it is Gramscian Marxism. You're going to hear this and you're going to go, wait, deconstructionism, tearing down all the order and structure, all of these have something that's in common. Whatever the current systems are that has a group of people who are on top, it needs to be brought down.

So, for instance, that's why the conversation about women in leading the Southern Baptist Convention, because those old structures got to tear them down. Whatever the education system was, got to break it. Whatever the government system is, you got to break it. Whatever the religious system is, you got to tear it down.

All right, so David Platt. For instance, preaching on Amos 5. Don't take this the wrong way. I like David Platt. He has a deep passion for the lost. Very emotive fellow, but I have no doubt, he was heading up the IMB, which is the International Missions Board. Yeah, because he's pastoring a church now in McLean, Virginia.

But he, nobody doubts this man's zeal that people would be won to the Lord. And yet his sermon, you listen to it and you went, wow, I'm hearing echoes of all of these things. Does that mean that David Platt is a Marxist? I don't think so. And yet, his tone, or not his tone, but the content of his messages, it has these flavors inside of it.

And so a lot of people seeing this went, hey, look, that's Marxism. That's deconstructionism. It's radical feminism. It's critical race theory, which is all about the oppressor being torn down because of the oppressed and having equal outcomes. And so you'll hear some of that these days. You're hearing from the social justice side things like there could be reparations that are due for the past abuses.

And then there's other folks on this side who are saying, wait a second, Ezekiel 18 is pretty clear on this, that if your father, for instance, if your father was a slaveholder, that's his sin. And that's the One of the themes throughout Ezekiel: you're going to pay for your sins.

Read Ezekiel 18. It's fascinating. You're going to pay for your sins. So if your father or grandfather was a slave, you're going to pay for his sins. And the son who continues in the tradition of his father, he's going to pay for his sins. But if you don't continue in the tradition of your father, you don't pay for the sins of your father.

And if you recall, Tabiti Yanya Buile said, well, that's exactly what you must do. And they would say that we see collective repentance from the nation of Israel. Therefore, the Christian church needs to have repentance, or all of America needs to repent, which is why David Platt actually said, all of you white people need to repent of your whiteness.

And the reason for that is because the belief on the social justice side is this culture has been dominated by white folks. And it's been oppressing black people. It's been oppressing women. It's been oppressing minorities. Now, look, this is tricky stuff that we're talking about. We're talking now about history here, where we're currently at as a culture.

I'm not suggesting for a second that I or, frankly, anybody else really has a handle on all of this. It needs to be a conversation that is well worth having because it's the Bible that has the solution to the racial tension problem in this country. You're black or purple.

I don't care. Like I mentioned earlier. Earlier, I'll meet you in an airport in Saudi Arabia, and you're a brother in Christ. I don't care what your melanin level is. We're in Christ. That's our new identity. And this is becoming kind of a divide where it says, no, we're more identified as black Christians and as white Christians.

And I have to tell you, I find that heartbreaking. I just find that very, very sad because it's like saying, I'm a Republican Christian. Or I'm a golf channel watching Christian. What do you, what? No, you're in Christ. We're in Christ together. And this identity, and that's another issue in here, too.

Identity politics is another issue. You identify with your people group and you vote for your people group simply because you have the affinity of the same skin color. So here's where we're now at. It sounds like some of these folks are using these terms down here. Are they?

Kevin De Young, he's Kevin DeYoung. Do you do DY? De Young. He's a Presbyterian fellow. He is whip smart, this guy. And he is now heading up the. He's heading up something big for the. He's at one of the Reform seminaries. All right. Now, Kevin DeYoun, he didn't sign.

We'll call this the Dallas Statement. He didn't sign it. So So, is he a Marxist? He wrote, I think, a very helpful article. So, did not J.D. Greer. J.D. Greer, who, by the way, says he's a compliment, again, another guy, I have no doubt, he has such a passion for the lost.

They're a missionary-sending church. He's now the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He calls himself a proud complimentarian, but women preach in his church. You go, well, that's different. So, we're using a lot of language, and yet it seems we've all got slightly different definitions. And so, when Kevin DeYoung wrote his recent article, it was within the last two weeks, we talked about it on the radio program.

I was really encouraged to see it. And the other article that was not J.D. Greer, it's an I'll think of his name, but he said, you know, I'm looking around at this whole conversation, and it seems you've got shades of all kinds of views going on here. So, I put this together.

Here's what we've got. Here's our Dallas statement again. So, this is going to be anti-social justice, and this is going to be pro-social justice. So, our two sides here, here we are represented. Now, these folks would say that people are opposed to social justice are racist. If you're not for social justice, you're racist.

Now, Are there racist people in this camp? Yeah, there are racist people. So I'm going to put them down here. This would be the extreme. These folks would be like white supremacists. These are people who need church discipline because they believe that white folks are just superior to everybody.

It's white supremacy. And you could say that there are folks that are exactly that. Okay, I've got a question for you. If you fall on this side, and I suspect there might be some folks who fall on this side, but if you fall on the, are you a white supremacist?

And you go, well, of course I'm not a white supremacist. All right, well, we've got other levels here on the anti-social justice. These people would say it's the gospel and no government. Don't get involved in government. This is not about any sort of immigration reform. This is not a political issue about political.

Nothing. You don't get involved. You just preach the gospel. The gospel is the solution to everything. That's a camp. Then you've got the gospel plus government. Or maybe plus government. You know, I don't have a problem with the church getting involved in stuff. It's a good thing. All right, there's a distinction.

And then you've got some people here who are like, well, yeah, I can kind of see the pro-social justice side a little bit. But we really need the gospel. All right. There's a wide range going on there from somebody who just says preach the gospel to somebody who thinks that white people are superior to everybody.

Guess what? Here's the rub. On this side, you've got the same thing going on. All right, so on the pro-social justice side, you've got people who would say, the gospel is the solution, plus, we should be engaged in culture, trying to fix stuff. Hmm. Wait, that sounds kind of similar, doesn't it?

And then you've got some people who would say, Yeah, we want to be about the gospel, but we definitely want government, we want immigration reform, we want to deal with the incarceration problem, and that's the church's job to fix that legislation. Okay? Then you've got people who are social justice people.

They buy into all of these concepts, but they would say, but I'm not a Marxist. And then guess what you've got here? You've got Marxists. All right. Now, here's what I've been seeing. This side has been talking about this side like everybody is this. And this side has been talking about this side as if everybody is that.

That's going to make it very uncomfortable at G3 and the Shepherds Conference to have capitalists and Marxists together at a conference who are torn on this issue. So I've been kind of wanting to fast forward this conversation because I don't think it's there yet. I'm hoping it does go there.

But I got to figure out: okay, Kevin, where are you at on these things? How do you understand these issues? Al Moeller, who normally speaks out about everything really, really fast, has been really gun-shy on this issue. And he didn't sign the Dallas Statement on Social Justice. And he's been saying that he kind of sees that there is systemic racism and that there is a problem.

I think he had to harken back to about the 1920s for that. But he did say that there's systemic racism in the church. So that in this congregation, most of y'all are racist. Yikes. Is he a Marxist? I kind of doubt El Moeller's a Marxist. If you've ever listened to him for five minutes, you know that he's not that.

So now we've all got to come together. And if we don't start defining our terms better, we're going to have ourselves a Donnie Brook and a complete mess. And you can say goodbye to things like the Together for the Gospel, because it'll just be a certain group that's together, and then there's going to be another conference that we're of social justice, we're not of social justice.

Is this an area on which we should divide? Well, here's what I think we're going to do. We've got these are these. So, fourth would be a Marxist. This would be a gospel person plus getting involved in the culture is number one. Over here, you've got gospel only, white supremacist would be number four.

How now shall we get along? I think we're going to all agree on this. If you take a look at gospel plus cultural engagement plus gospel and no government people, we have been getting along. We've been getting along quite well, thank you. I'm not a Jerry Falwell religious right guy per se.

I mean, I get it, I understand it. It's not quite where I swim, but they're brothers and sisters in the Lord. So, I think we can say we've got fellowship, right? All right, what about this? This is gospel plus government, gospel, social, more heavier social engagement for the church, gospel plus, well, you know, some government, that's okay.

We already have been getting along just fine, thank you very much. And so, it seems to me we should be able to get along in the future, even though the terms are kind of changing and its conversation seems to be different. Remember, history happens in time. We tend to forget that.

We tend to see, okay, They did the MLK 50 conference. They did the Dallas Statement. That's it. You're either this side or that side. And I'm saying, not so fast. We don't know where everybody is at on this continuum. And it might change. Okay, could it be that David Platt is a Marxist?

Well, of course. I mean, any of us, I guess, could be covering that up. But until that's revealed, I'm thinking I can worship with David Platt. I'm going to see him at the G3 conference. I'll be in the green room with the fellow, with Mark Dever, with David Platt.

Who's the other fellow who's going to be there? Justin Taylor. Who is it? Justin Taylor. Is he going to be at the G3 conference? He's one of the guys that wrote the articles with the four points. Oh, was it Justin Taylor? Thank you for that. I feel I'll be able to sleep tonight.

All right. Now, these are pro-social justice people. They're sort of pro-social justice, but more gospel folks. Now, both of them would say they're into the gospel, but this is hardcore social justice versus I'm sympathetic to that side. Do we have unity with those folks? Well, I think it gets a little trickier.

All right? I think we would all agree white supremacy and Marxism have got to go. There's no, we can't have fellowship with those sins. They're both sins. So now I don't think that fours are going to be a part of the camp. All right. So I think. Those people, as they reveal themselves, they're going to have to go their own way.

Because we're not going to be a part of that scheme and that system. And the same thing is true with white supremacy. If you're into that, church discipline needs to happen. There doesn't need to be a forced repentance. Somebody who's a white supremacist needs Matthew 18 all over them to repent and to be brought back into the fold.

So I think that we can say that could be a divide, but are we going to now divide with our number threes? Are we now going to divide with our twos and our ones? Here's where we're at. These fellows right here, I'm over here. I don't know where you are, but I'm over here.

And these folks are all over here. Which number are they? And the answer is, I don't know, because we're at this stage in history where it just hasn't been revealed yet. People aren't putting down their cards to say, this is where I feel that we're actually at. Does Mark Dever want reparations?

I don't know. I do know this. If I sat down and talked to Mark Dever, which I will be, he's not going to be, he's going to look at me. If I even insinuated he was a Marxist, you know, Mark Dever, do you all know Mark Dever, Nine Marks Ministries?

All right, a Shepherd's Conference guy. My wife and I were at the Shepherd, I think it was Shepherds or Strange Fire, something, and we were driving onto the Grace Community Church campus, and Mark Dever came walking in front of us on his way. To get there, so I just laid on the horn.

You know, and he jumps and he looks in and he recognizes me, comes running up to the car, gets in the open the door, open the door, open the door. He jumps in the backseat and he goes, You got to hear this. I'm reading in Nehemiah this morning.

Listen to this. And Nehemiah chip. So it wasn't, hey, Todd. Hi, Susan. How are you? Good to see you. I didn't know you were going to be at this conference. What are you going to be doing for lunch? I got to tell you what I just read in the Bible this morning.

Okay. Where is he at? I don't know where he's at on all of these issues. I do know, for instance, that Mark Deborah said to David Platt, I don't think you should be preaching social justice from Amos 5. But he didn't sign the statement, and he's on this side.

So all that to say, and we'll just open it up and have a conversation about this. Where are we at right now? Well, I don't think this whole thing is done. In fact, I don't think it's anywhere near done. I don't know if the issue has affected your church yet.

It will. It's going to hit in some way, shape, or form. There's certainly conversations, I'm almost sure, happening at different dinner tables, whether it's organized by the church or not. Right now, where we're at is I think that we need to be actually talking to one another. Tabiti Anyabuile has said some stuff that I think is way out there.

Tabiti Anyile. Buili's faith statement at his local church is the 1689 London Baptist Confession. And he's talking like a Marxist. Is he? Don't know, but we've got to find out. So, my encouragement, the reason that I wanted to share this with you today is: if you're not familiar with this issue, you would do well to, and one of the takeaways from this would be: listen for this language.

Let's keep talking about who gets involved in government and that conversation, I think, happening, especially in the context of the local church. Let's keep chatting about that. That's fine. But listen for these terms. Because if you start to hear things like, I think it was somebody said one of the higher-ups at the Southern Baptist Convention, you know, these old systems, they just need to be torn down.

I've heard that somewhere. They're talking like this. Does that mean they are this? And I don't think that we're going to know any of that until this conversation progresses and people start bringing clarity to the conversation and we start delineating some of the issues to say, where are you at specifically on this, where are you at on that?

And I fear, if we don't have that conversation, and sadly, that conversation has not happened yet. There have been some couple of phone calls back and forth. It seems to me these two parties should actually sit down and talk it through and just ask some questions. Let them ask the hard questions.

Well, why are you? Don't you think that using social justice is a good term? And conversely, hey, you know, Karl Marx, where are you at on that? I think until that happens, we're going to have some division that shouldn't exist. One last thing, and then we'll do some questions.

You're right, you can't see that clock here. What does it say? We're going to do quick questions. Here's the biggie, and I think this is perhaps the most important thing: is this a gospel issue? Because if it gets to the point where this side is saying, look, you do not have a full-formed gospel until it involves social justice.

Now, I don't know what that means exactly, but until you are like full on board, you're not really a Christian. Okay, if it gets that far, now we're talking a different language. That's a different game completely, because that suddenly rises to the level of essential theology. Right now, I don't think that we're there.

Is it a gospel issue? Again, Kevin de Young tried to answer that question, and his answer was a definitive: it depends. What's the gospel? What's social justice? So, is social justice a gospel issue? What do you mean by social justice? And he said, if you mean Marxism, no, it's not a gospel issue.

If you mean That the gospel should inform you that there's no distinction between Jew, Gentile, male, female, slave, free, black, white, any distinction. If that's what you mean by social justice, I'm all for it. But he's on this side of the camp here. He's not in my camp.

That's exactly what I would say. The gospel does inform our attitudes about other people groups. And if it isn't involved in our gospel, that that's a fruit of the gospel, it's not the gospel itself, but it's a fruit of the gospel, I would argue along with Kevin de Young, who's on the wrong side of the issue.

Now, what is social justice? What is a gospel issue? Until all of these terms get defined, might I just suggest this? Multiple times throughout the New Testament, Jesus in his high priestly prayer prayed for unity. Let's hold on to that. It's too soon to be dividing. It's too early to be throwing people under the bus and saying, well, this is not going to have anything to do with those people.

I think that's where the real fight should happen. Even as your congregation maybe discusses this, and please note, by the way, anything that I've said, that it's not Tom's position. I'm just telling you kind of how I see stuff going on. So this is not your official church position by any means.

Do it united. These are tense issues. They're difficult issues. But if we can't do it knowing that we are. In Christ, I think we're going to be sinning. So, it's 9:59. Boom! I hit my post. Hit your post.